< 1 2
Maybe we should try less ranting and bemoaning
Posted: 18 May 2017 09:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
Avatar
Yeoman
RankRank
Total Posts:  80
Joined  2016-02-02
Data1001 - 17 May 2017 06:25 PM

Could not agree more with OP. Critique and antagonism are not the same thing. One can even post how a certain change has made one feel disappointed or upset, without it becoming confrontational and accusatory.

Also agree with the sentiment, if not the tone, of the original post.  While it may feel like taking an antagonistic tone is the only way to get DB to change the way they operate, they have more often been receptive to constructive comments.

Data1001 - 17 May 2017 06:25 PM

I do understand and empathize with those players who temporarily go a bit off the rails, though. Because I think for many—not all, perhaps, but many—playing games satisfies a need within, giving people a taste of having some control and pride in something… which perhaps might be somewhat lacking in other areas of one’s life. There have been several occasions in the past that I myself have taken games way too seriously and lost my temper. Not my proudest moments, in retrospect. Yes, from an outside point of view, doing so seems silly and frivolous—but human beings tend to be very protective of things which give them enjoyment, or moments of respite from the real world.

I’m with you on the empathy, especially in the current state of events.  Both the shuttle and the reward table issues have been brought up before.  The shuttle issue is possibly game (or at least event) breaking, but we haven’t got information to even confirm that.  It’s not easy to stay civil when communication is strained.

On that point I’ll add that we have to remember that oftentimes this forum is a little like a game of telephone, we communicate with Shan and then Shan communicates with the team.  Yes she can show the text and write down their answers to pass along, but it’s still not the same as directly communicating with the person/people fixing the problem.

I have to take issue with the diversion into psychoanalysis.  I think you are coming from a good place.  It doesn’t add anything to the conversation to suggest the people who are angry at DB are somehow “broken” like another post I saw asking whether the OP had a job.  Just like it not being constructive to antagonize DB, these suggestions don’t help.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 May 2017 11:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
Avatar
Ensign
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  247
Joined  2016-08-01
Darxide - 18 May 2017 03:01 AM

But where will I get my daily fix of babyrage if people stop posting it here?

It’s great reading, isn’t it?

 Signature 

It’s a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 2 cents in. Somebody’s making a penny.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 May 2017 12:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
Avatar
Lieutenant
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  389
Joined  2016-06-14

It’s very easy to get caught up in the complaining in a forum. It is a problem with social forums all over the web. It is so easy to say horrible things when you can hide behind an avatar and a fake name. It’s not enough to just disagree with someone, now you can make them feel stupid and insult them with no worry about retribution, they don’t really know who you are. When someone feels attacked, it is natural to want to defend yourself and attack back in the same manner. This leads to people behaving in a way that they normally wouldn’t and a mob mentality starts to take over the forum because the negativity has become the norm. How do you break that pattern? By posting threads like this one. One positive comment at a time or not responding to a member who is clearly baiting for an argument. There will always be legitimate complaints about something in the game but lets find ways to state them in a way that promotes positive conversation. If you think Shan and Nod aren’t responding to people enough, maybe it’s because we have ten threads about the same complaint and they have to spend their time going to each one and telling us to be civil to one another and editing spiteful and rude comments.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 May 2017 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
Avatar
Lieutenant
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  301
Joined  2014-12-20
Captain J. Phelps228 - 18 May 2017 12:08 PM

If you think Shan and Nod aren’t responding to people enough, maybe it’s because we have ten threads about the same complaint and they have to spend their time going to each one and telling us to be civil to one another and editing spiteful and rude comments.

I see it contrariwise. In other words you are confusing effect with cause. All complainings are provoked by DB’s irresponsible attitude and/or lack of proper response to many obvious issues…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 May 2017 03:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
Avatar
Ensign
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  204
Joined  2016-12-28
snowman - 18 May 2017 02:09 PM
Captain J. Phelps228 - 18 May 2017 12:08 PM

If you think Shan and Nod aren’t responding to people enough, maybe it’s because we have ten threads about the same complaint and they have to spend their time going to each one and telling us to be civil to one another and editing spiteful and rude comments.

I see it contrariwise. In other words you are confusing effect with cause. All complainings are provoked by DB’s irresponsible attitude and/or lack of proper response to many obvious issues…

That is basically using a justification of “but they started it”, and not bothering to consider the consequences of choosing to respond that way. That justification has been suggested many times before, and I think that there is ample evidence in the world at large as well as on these forums that indicates how ineffective that approach is.

An Eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind” - Gandhi

Some of the things people may want to consider:
1. Question of the accuracy of your perception of the offense. Do you rush to judgement and assume malice? Are you making a mountain out of a molehill? Are there other reasonable explanations for the phenomena? When and if you assign something as being “obvious”, with how much rigor have you bothered to assess the accuracy of not only of that perception, but also whatever solution that seems to follow?

2. Ponder the signal to noise problem. There is a distinct possibility that a large portion of the vitriol and complaining isn’t a derivative of informed or prolonged grievance. Even where such vitriol is simply an unfortunate byproduct of reasonable frustration, in application, it undermines an otherwise salient, useful and constructive bit of criticism and feedback, and it is difficult to distinguish from otherwise useless and ill-considered complaining or trolling. Therefore, while it may feel like an appropriate response, it is often just undermining your objective and poisoning the well (assuming the intent is to provide constructive criticism for positive change).

3. Be cautious of assigning a false positive, to the “results” of previous complaining and vitriol. For a more comprehensive breakdown and discussion on that bit, as well as the proceeding and following bits, please review, Very irritated about all the things, which has several contributions on the topic from many people.

4. Understand the downstream effects of the hostile environment that is created by all the negativity. Ask yourself how willing you would be to be “more communicative” with a bunch of people who are going to react irrationally and condescendingly, while accusing you of malice, greed, and duplicity among other things. People who for the most part only bother to consider their own perspective on any given matter, and don’t trouble themselves with trying to understand or work toward solutions which will work for, and be agreeable to, the majority of Captains and the Development team. Which is not to say that there aren’t some questionable practices, but to consider how we go about questioning and discussing them, if our intent is to actually help change things.

5. Think for a second on the problem with the vocal minority. It is so much easier for a few who want to shout and complain and be negative to fill up a space and drive out all other voices. There are many of our fellow Captains who simply do not weigh in on a topic because all the negativity. The problem is, the vocal minority tend to begin to think that they speak for, or represent the majority, when in fact they do not. They have simply become an echo chamber which ends up reinforcing their own views.

Exactly, none of that is meant to excuse or justify a lack of communication from DB or excuse any of the reasonably questionable game design elements and mechanics. Nor is it intended to invalidate anyone’s frustrations. I only offer it as a consideration, one that I choose to foolishly hope will be of some use to someone and create a bit of positive change.

 

 

 Signature 

We are all downstream from each other and ourselves, therefore choose to be relaxed and groovy.
Consider participating in civil discourse, being like water, and wandering with the Subspace Eddies.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 May 2017 03:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
Avatar
Ensign
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  145
Joined  2017-03-29

That’s a fantastic response from the Ambassador.  Thank you.

 Signature 

Solidarity with fellow players urging DB to Do Better.  Thank you Shan and DB for recent notable improvements in communication and gameplay.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 May 2017 03:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
Avatar
Lieutenant
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  301
Joined  2014-12-20
Ambassador Xoiiku - 18 May 2017 03:16 PM
snowman - 18 May 2017 02:09 PM
Captain J. Phelps228 - 18 May 2017 12:08 PM

If you think Shan and Nod aren’t responding to people enough, maybe it’s because we have ten threads about the same complaint and they have to spend their time going to each one and telling us to be civil to one another and editing spiteful and rude comments.

I see it contrariwise. In other words you are confusing effect with cause. All complainings are provoked by DB’s irresponsible attitude and/or lack of proper response to many obvious issues…

That is basically using a justification of “but they started it”, and not bothering to consider the consequences of choosing to respond that way. That justification has been suggested many times before, and I think that there is ample evidence in the world at large as well as on these forums that indicates how ineffective that approach is.

An Eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind” - Gandhi

Some of the things people may want to consider:
1. Question of the accuracy of your perception of the offense. Do you rush to judgement and assume malice? Are you making a mountain out of a molehill? Are there other reasonable explanations for the phenomena? When and if you assign something as being “obvious”, with how much rigor have you bothered to assess the accuracy of not only of that perception, but also whatever solution that seems to follow?

2. Ponder the signal to noise problem. There is a distinct possibility that a large portion of the vitriol and complaining isn’t a derivative of informed or prolonged grievance. Even where such vitriol is simply an unfortunate byproduct of reasonable frustration, in application, it undermines an otherwise salient, useful and constructive bit of criticism and feedback, and it is difficult to distinguish from otherwise useless and ill-considered complaining or trolling. Therefore, while it may feel like an appropriate response, it is often just undermining your objective and poisoning the well (assuming the intent is to provide constructive criticism for positive change).

3. Be cautious of assigning a false positive, to the “results” of previous complaining and vitriol. For a more comprehensive breakdown and discussion on that bit, as well as the proceeding and following bits, please review, Very irritated about all the things, which has several contributions on the topic from many people.

4. Understand the downstream effects of the hostile environment that is created by all the negativity. Ask yourself how willing you would be to be “more communicative” with a bunch of people who are going to react irrationally and condescendingly, while accusing you of malice, greed, and duplicity among other things. People who for the most part only bother to consider their own perspective on any given matter, and don’t trouble themselves with trying to understand or work toward solutions which will work for, and be agreeable to, the majority of Captains and the Development team. Which is not to say that there aren’t some questionable practices, but to consider how we go about questioning and discussing them, if our intent is to actually help change things.

5. Think for a second on the problem with the vocal minority. It is so much easier for a few who want to shout and complain and be negative to fill up a space and drive out all other voices. There are many of our fellow Captains who simply do not weigh in on a topic because all the negativity. The problem is, the vocal minority tend to begin to think that they speak for, or represent the majority, when in fact they do not. They have simply become an echo chamber which ends up reinforcing their own views.

Exactly, none of that is meant to excuse or justify a lack of communication from DB or excuse any of the reasonably questionable game design elements and mechanics. Nor is it intended to invalidate anyone’s frustrations. I only offer it as a consideration, one that I choose to foolishly hope will be of some use to someone and create a bit of positive change.

I never said it’s good or bad. I did not excuse anyone. I just said DB is constantly provoking this kind of responses with their behaviour. It’s a fact. If there is anyone obvious to blame it is DB. They have power to stop it. I can guarantee you that 90% of all complainings will go away if DB changes its behaviour and simply starts to do their job.

And regarding to that Gandhi’s saying… Well, it’s not entirely true. The last person saves his/her vision. wink

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 May 2017 10:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
Avatar
Cadet
Rank
Total Posts:  11
Joined  2017-05-13
Mr. Kite - 17 May 2017 04:03 PM

What’s with all the ranting and bemoaning here? If you want to be constructive, post a reasoned message without emotion. This is a game, not life. Appreciate it for what it is.

I am a fairly new player (about two months), and I have mostly enjoyed this game so far. I have read most of the more recent posts to familiarize myself with how things work. Having played many games, and reading through many forums, I feel so inclined as to point out some things to you regarding this post.

1) The people who play this are not Vulcans, viewing all things through logic, they are humans, who are by nature, emotional, and respond in like manner. Being obviously upset because customer service is ignoring legitimate concerns is not “bad” or “inappropriate” it is in fact appropriate.

2) For those who are F2P, this is a game, as you say. But for those who pay to play, this is not a game. It is a purchased product/service. And as such, the buyers have rights to discuss any issues that arise from the product/service they have paid for with the seller without consequence. And being emotional is certainly to be expected when someone uses false advertising in connection with their product/service. When a screen displays that a shuttle mission has a 100% chance of success, but fails, the vendor has a responsibility not only to correct the bug, but to reimburse each failure with a proper reward.

3) Banning an obviously liked, and very helpful member of the community for voicing displeasure over being ignored was a bad business decision.

 

 

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 May 2017 11:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
Avatar
Lieutenant
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  337
Joined  2016-08-30
ReneeUhnay - 18 May 2017 10:06 PM
Mr. Kite - 17 May 2017 04:03 PM

What’s with all the ranting and bemoaning here? If you want to be constructive, post a reasoned message without emotion. This is a game, not life. Appreciate it for what it is.

I am a fairly new player (about two months), and I have mostly enjoyed this game so far. I have read most of the more recent posts to familiarize myself with how things work. Having played many games, and reading through many forums, I feel so inclined as to point out some things to you regarding this post.

1) The people who play this are not Vulcans, viewing all things through logic, they are humans, who are by nature, emotional, and respond in like manner. Being obviously upset because customer service is ignoring legitimate concerns is not “bad” or “inappropriate” it is in fact appropriate.

2) For those who are F2P, this is a game, as you say. But for those who pay to play, this is not a game. It is a purchased product/service. And as such, the buyers have rights to discuss any issues that arise from the product/service they have paid for with the seller without consequence. And being emotional is certainly to be expected when someone uses false advertising in connection with their product/service. When a screen displays that a shuttle mission has a 100% chance of success, but fails, the vendor has a responsibility not only to correct the bug, but to reimburse each failure with a proper reward.

3) Banning an obviously liked, and very helpful member of the community for voicing displeasure over being ignored was a bad business decision.

 

This.


Imagine any other product you use this much in your evry day life and compare it to this:


Oh, it said best chance of a 60” 4k TV, that’s why I ordered three, and now have a trio of 22” CRTs from 1998, luck of the draw.

Oh, my TV was paid for, and isn’t here for the family Super Bowl party I got it for. It’s okay though, I got to plan for days and spend all my time working on it. Too bad they don’t have anything completely free they could give me for wasting my time by clicking buttons and making me magically not have an issue.

Oh, my TV was supposed to get speakers like everyone else, and I didn’t get it. At least I spent all that fun time and effort filling out forms and paying postage and whatnot. And that year I spent being one of their best customers and advocates and supporters, at least that was fun.

Oh, my TV salesmen won’t engage in conversation or compensate me for manufacturer defects, bad service, or anything. It’s okay though, it’s just a thing.

Oh, I called the TV company liars after all this, and have no TV for a week. It’s just a TV though, and I was out of line.


Except, three TVs would’ve been cheaper for most of the people who are fed up.

 

I think the divide, in large part, is of people who’ve invested a lot and therefore have experienced every last problem, and of newer or monthly card players. Or of people who are or aren’t so invested and addicted that quitting would seem like a colossal waste.

If they’d just communicate and feign compassion and apologies and talk to us, it wouldn’t be too bad. If they’d reimburse for problems, it wouldn’t be too bad. If they acted more like a physical product company (which isn’t hard) instead of Nintendo circa 1993 or a $20 one-time app purchase, it wouldn’t be so bad.

The customer isn’t always right,  but they always deserve to feel appreciated and satisfied, and to voice grievences, and have an expectation of satisfaction. It’s the burden of the merchant to fix these things. And to listen. And to participate in all discussion about product flaws, misleading advertising, perceived lack of concern or appreciation for how things are, and anything else.

I’ve supported this game hard as all hell, in every conceivable way, and so have many, if not most of us. Perhaps people wouldn’t be so vocal and frustrated if the company we helped build did so much as talked to us, person to person.

There were flaws and everything else, far, far before it got like this. This isn’t an outbreak of immature negativity.

Overreaction is not just to be expected, but is warranted.

 

Now, that’s not to say we should insult people, but if it were any other product, it would be forgiven, talked about person to person, and resolved using diplomacy, not a cold shoulder. Compensation for issues, not just an “aw shucks”, whilst ignoring or not being considerate or making customers who fuel their company feel like there’s a complete lack of appreciation and caring for them.


That said, I enjoy the game, and this forum, and try and help regardless of what I post about. And I hate this **** more than those of you who over analyze and take issue with those kinds of posts.

Because it shouldn’t be like this, and I empathize with all sides.


But don’t get mad when everyone gets mistreated and “bullied” (for sake of the analogy) time and time again, and then a few go off on the schoolyard “bully”.

Because the issue of negative criticism isn’t one of it’s own making, and blaming users for all this… well, it means you’re missing something. Or just plain over analyzing. And likely weren’t here or aggrieved by what and who is being complained about.

 


That said, I hope and try for the improvement of this forum and community.  But it’s a two-way street. It always has been. You can’t expect someone to pour… some other liquid on your head and tell you it’s raining time and again, and for the burden of fixing the situation to fall on the people with stained shirts, who are up in arms.

So make more topics about other things, do what you can for the community, but try and understand why things are the way they are, and that the vast majority do not ask for much, all things considered.


I hope that helps at least 1 person understand.

Thanks for reading, and be well everybody. Good luck with the rest of the event!

:)

-vg

 Signature 

—-
[DB]
Need a good, strong fleet? Click here to check out “secret squadron”.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 May 2017 12:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
Avatar
Commander
RankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2521
Joined  2014-09-09
Mr. Kite - 17 May 2017 04:03 PM

What’s with all the ranting and bemoaning here? If you want to be constructive, post a reasoned message without emotion. This is a game, not life. Appreciate it for what it is.

I thought all the ranting and bemoaning was appreciating it for what it is.  raspberry

Kidding aside.  It is getting better.

 Signature 

Star Trek Fleet:  Quark’s Holosuite

GOTA - House of Rebirth
Stark 2 - Lannister 2 - Greyjoy 18 - Baratheon 10 - Targaryen 10 - Martell 10 - Tyrell 2 - Tully 10 - Other 2

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 May 2017 02:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
Avatar
Commander
RankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1153
Joined  2017-04-11
Captain J. Phelps228 - 18 May 2017 12:08 PM

It’s very easy to get caught up in the complaining in a forum. It is a problem with social forums all over the web. It is so easy to say horrible things when you can hide behind an avatar and a fake name. It’s not enough to just disagree with someone, now you can make them feel stupid and insult them with no worry about retribution, they don’t really know who you are. When someone feels attacked, it is natural to want to defend yourself and attack back in the same manner. This leads to people behaving in a way that they normally wouldn’t and a mob mentality starts to take over the forum because the negativity has become the norm. How do you break that pattern? By posting threads like this one. One positive comment at a time or not responding to a member who is clearly baiting for an argument. There will always be legitimate complaints about something in the game but lets find ways to state them in a way that promotes positive conversation. If you think Shan and Nod aren’t responding to people enough, maybe it’s because we have ten threads about the same complaint and they have to spend their time going to each one and telling us to be civil to one another and editing spiteful and rude comments.

Excellent post Phelps.

 Signature 

My 4* & 5* Crew/Ship collection is in my Bio
Gauntlet Crew Top 10s / ‘First to Max’ list / Limited Crew list / Gauntlet Crit Chances
Noobs of the Delta Quadrant [NDQ] fleet officer - Delta Flyer Noobs squadron
United Kingdom. Started playing: 06th Apr 2017

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 May 2017 03:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
Avatar
Ensign
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  229
Joined  2016-03-12

Positive and constructive post bump!

Profile
 
 
   
 < 1 2
2 of 2